“As long as I can, say what I want to say when I want to say it, as far as I’m concerned, I’m fluent and the rest is just a semantics”

— Vince Vawter

Listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts or your favorite podcast platform. You can also watch the interview on YouTube.

BIO:

Vince Vawter spent 40 years in the newspaper business until his retirement in 2006 as publisher and president of the Evansville Courier & Press in Evansville, Indiana. Vawter’s first novel, Paperboy, published by Random House in 2013, was awarded the coveted Newbery Honor. The book, which deals with a boy who stutters and who must throw his friend’s newspaper route, has been published in 16 languages. It has sold more than a quarter-million copies. His second book, Copyboy, was published in 2018 by Capstone Editions. Since his retirement, Vawter has spoken at schools, education conferences and gatherings of PWS in more than 25 states. His books continue to appear on reading lists in schools across the country. He lives in Louisville, Tenn., with his wife of 49 years.

EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS

0:00-5:15 Intro

5:15-13:26 Finding Vater’s voice

13:26-19:21 Navigating public speaking

19:21-24:43 Attempting to not stutter

24:43-26:58 Preparing the ‘My Stuttering’ Manifesto 

26:58-32:08Turning point/changing the narrative

32:08-33:35 Treat people, not problems

33:35-38:52 Stuttering is Overcome, not cured

38:52-44:57 Defining Vawter’s stutter 

44:57-49:26 Defining young Vawter’s stutter 

49:26-52:11 TS Toolbox Resources for Stuttering. 

52:11-55:28 “I am glad I stutter” - Vince Vawter

55:28-56:15 Outro

RESOURCE LIST

• Book ‘Paper Boy’ by Vince Vawter

• Vince Vawter website

• Twitter - @vvawter

• Facebook - Vince Vawter

MORE QUOTES

“I am glad I'm a person who stutters. It makes me who I am. If I were given the choice at five years old I don't want to stutter. At 75 years old, I'm glad I stutter. It made me a stronger person. I'm fine with it.” - Vince Vawter

“Stuttering is what we do when we try not to stutter…It's a stutterer’s attempt to gain fluency. And in that attempt, they are causing a stutter.” - Vince Vawter

TRANSCRIPTION:

Uri Schneider: Well, it's a big treat. Good morning, everybody. Uh, here live, my name's Uri Schneider, Transcending Stuttering, and SchneiderSpeech. And it's a big honor. There are certain guests that just stand out and have been people I've wanted to prepare for and to practice. And this is, as I told Vince, before we got on this is an itch I'm looking forward to scratching and he'll tell you why that's funny.

Uri Schneider: But, uh, we have today, the honor and privilege to speak with Vince vawter. And if you know anything about the world of stuttering and showing up in media and in print and in books and literature, Vince is a legend for his contribution, which is not only treasured in the community of people who stutter but around the country and around the world as a great piece of literature for young people.

Uri Schneider: And in addition to that features a character who stutters, which is really something ahead of its time. Something that is overdue to have more representation. Of characters who stutter and in doing so there's so much power to how we can reduce stigma and increase the variety and diversity of what young people grow up, seeing, and hearing and reading about.

Uri Schneider: And it will ultimately contribute to a much more wholesome and stronger tapestry in our society and culture. That's my belief. So I give you your, your intro that is due, and it's a big honor to have you events. Thanks for joining.

Vince Vawter: Uh, thank you very much.

Uri Schneider: So Vince Vawter spent 40 years in the newspaper business until his retirement in 2006.

Uri Schneider: That was the end of the first chapter as retirement, his publisher and president of Evansville courier and press in Evansville, Indiana, it's Vawter's. First book paper, boy published by random house in 2013 was awarded the coveted Newbury honor. The book, which deals with the boy who stutters and who must throw his friend's newspaper route has been published in 16 languages.

Uri Schneider: That is no small feat to have that many people interested in reading a book, let alone the effort to translate it. Bravo it's been sold. It's sold more than a quarter million copies. His second book paper boy was published in 2018 by capstone editions. And since his retired. He's been busy. He has spoken at schools, education conferences, and gatherings of people who stutter in more than 25 states.

Uri Schneider: So we'll figure out which it states you still need. And we'll try to help you out there. Could you to appear in reading lists in schools, across the country today, he lives in Louisville, Tennessee with his wife of 49 years. Vince, it's a pleasure to have you. Thanks for taking the time.

Vince Vawter: Thank you very much.

Vince Vawter: Very, uh, you know, uh, hear you reading that, uh, introduction. I, I was thinking, is he really talking about me? And, uh, yes, that's me. Everything was correct. So thank you very much.

Uri Schneider: Even more challenging is my next question, which is what's one thing that doesn't appear in that formal bio it's meaningful to you, something you would wish people would know that's meaningful to you part of your life.

Vince Vawter: Uh, I guess I would answer that, um, in saying that, uh, the book, uh, paper boy is a book. I always knew I would write. Uh, I had no idea if anybody would publish it. I had no, uh, no idea if anybody would read it. Uh, and what has happened, uh, since I published it, um, has been totally amazing. Um, um, if he would have told me I would spend my retirement.

Vince Vawter: Uh, talking across the country and to zooms around the world, including a Kuala Lumpur and, and the places I can't even find on the globe. Uh, but, but that's how I've spent my retirement and, and I, uh, Uh, I couldn't think of anything else better to do. Uh it's uh, it's something I believe in. I think that stuttering is so misunderstood.

Vince Vawter: Um, uh, I like to talk to young people, uh, and though they may not stutter. They have issues of some sort and if I can, uh, help them to face those issues. And find a way around them find a way to co-exist with them. Um, uh, I do think it's a service, uh, and I'm proud I can do that.

Uri Schneider: That's astounding. So for those of us that only know you, since you retired.

Uri Schneider: Uh, this is how we know you. If we had met you earlier on you're a few years older than me, would you take us through a walk of any standout moments or chapters in your, and your journey? As we were talking before we went live, you know, the word journey is so appropriate and you've got a couple of miles locked

Uri Schneider: yes.

Vince Vawter: Um, when I was a young person, uh, I would have probably, uh, I could probably be considered at the poster child of covert stuttering. I tried to hide my stutter in every way I could. Uh, some of the things I did really embarrassed me now, but when you're. Uh, teenager when you're 11 or 12 years old, you do anything you can, uh, to survive.

Vince Vawter: And I keep in mind, this was in the fifties and sixties and, uh, speech therapy at that point. To my mind is no where near it is. Uh, today I, I think, uh, I think the field of speech therapy has made such great strides, uh, and, uh, you know, speech therapists are some of my favorite people. Uh, and I talked to a lot of them, um, I was a covert, a stutterer, but there's some things in the book which happened to me, which, which are not fiction.

Vince Vawter: They came right out of my life. Um, I couldn't say my name. If somebody were to ask me my name, uh, I would try to make the V sound. And I would block on that and I would hold my breath. And on more than one occasion, I got dizzy and I would black out. Um, I kept the Thumbtack in my pocket and at any time I had to read aloud in class.

Vince Vawter: Uh, speaking class, I would jam that Thumbtack, uh, into my Palm, hoping the pain of that would take away the pain of stuttering. And of course it was not. And as I say in my book, uh, it just caused two pains. Um, uh, and then, um, you know, uh, Um, I would, um, there's a scene in the book also where my family takes us out to eat at an Italian restaurant.

Vince Vawter: And some people that I didn't know, uh, uh, joined us and we will, they were laughing and everything. I was very uncomfortable and for some reason I had this horror. Uh, of telling a waiter, what I would like to eat and what I would do sometimes is to try to change the word around a little bit, just so, um, I could get it out.

Vince Vawter: And so the waiter came to me and I said splish sgetti that created. A big laugh. Oh, your boy is so cute. Well, I got very embarrassed, uh, and they kept on talking about it and, you know, I had a mouth full of spaghetti and at some point I just let it fly all over the table. I was, I was about 12 years old at this time.

Vince Vawter: So those are in the book. And that, that as a part of my childhood, which was very real, um, I continued in college still as a covert, uh, stutterer. Um, and then, uh, when I got into the newspaper business, um, you know, I knew I was going to have to come to grips with it. Uh, I guess I should back up a little bit.

Vince Vawter: When I was in high school and then in college, my only goal was to be a professional baseball player. Uh, I thought, okay. Since I can't talk, uh, and I'm pretty good at baseball, uh, I've got to try to get to the major leagues. Uh, and so I went to college at LSU, uh, and I was an, and I placed all of my effort, uh, on sports.

Vince Vawter: Uh, on baseball, trying to find my self worth well. It turned out. I wasn't quite as good as baseball as I thought. And I remember the day I saw my first, uh, 98 mile an hour fast ball. Uh, and I decided right then, well, I better learn to do something else because this baseball is not going to work. Uh, so in my.

Vince Vawter: In my juvenile thinking. I said, okay. Uh, since I can't talk, I better learn how to write, uh, not knowing that I newspaper reporter has to talk. A lot more than he or she writes. Uh, and, uh, so, but I still, uh, um, uh, found out I had a knack for it. And, uh, so, so that's what led me into. Uh, journalism, uh, and, uh, I love the newspaper business.

Vince Vawter: I loved the chaos of the newsroom because, uh, it seemed like it helped me focus. Uh, and, uh, and so I, uh, I spent, uh, 40 years in newspapers, uh, uh, as you said, and, and, uh, it was, it was a great career. Uh, I didn't give him my first. Uh, uh, public speech, uh, as a newspaper editor until I was, uh, about, uh, 45 years old.

Vince Vawter: Uh, and, and it w uh, it was, it was traumatic. Uh, I got through it though, and something kind of clicked. Quit. And, and, uh, throughout this time I had gone through a lot of speech therapy, but, um, uh, I never really, uh, got over the hump, but, uh, when I started, uh, public speaking, Uh, something seemed to click, which, which said, you know, what I really need to be concentrating on is not a total fluency it's in finding my voice.

Vince Vawter: And so that's what I concentrated on. Uh, and that's why I like to say that, uh, that, uh, fluency, uh, can be a cruel mistress. Uh, and I truly believe that. So that's, that's kinda my life there in a nutshell, my stuttering

Uri Schneider: locked. So I'm interested in not the lucid details, but the. The inside story till 45, your dance with the mistress, you know, avoiding public speaking.

Uri Schneider: How did you navigate, what were some of the proud, crafty, resourceful ways you navigated and maybe other ways you navigated, uh, get into 45 without doing public speaking?

Vince Vawter: Yeah, a funny story I like to tell, and it's a very true story. Uh, My first speech to a civic club, uh, uh, it happened, uh, rather quickly or the editor of the newspaper.

Vince Vawter: And I was the men in chief editor. I was the second in charge. Uh, he was scheduled to speak at a civic club, uh, you know, the typical, uh, noon luncheon with a rubber chicken and all that. And it's

Uri Schneider: not, it's not a typical, it's not a typical place I hang out. So it's actually not as common as you might think. But for those that know the typical civic club lunch.

Vince Vawter: Right, right. Yeah. Uh, and there were maybe, uh, 60 people in the room or something, and of course I was scared to death. Uh, and, uh, and so I wrote my speech and I practice it and I said, well, I've got to get through it. Uh, somehow. Uh, so, uh, Uh, I started my talk and I tried to, uh, I tried to hit all my speech targets.

Vince Vawter: Um, and I was still extremely nervous though. Uh, but then I looked down in the front row and there was an older gentleman there. And he was sound asleep. He, his head was cocked over and I think he may have been snoring even. And at that point it seems like a light from the heavens came down. And it showed me that, you know, I'm dying a thousand deaths up here and this guy in the front row, he could care less.

Vince Vawter: Uh, uh, you know, uh, he doesn't know I'm stuttering, you know, he doesn't know what I'm going through. And so. Why should I be concerned? Uh, and, and I think back to that, man, um, you know, and, and, uh, so, um, uh, uh, you know, I give a lot of, uh, public speaking, uh, public speeches now. Uh, and I think about that, man, all, uh, man often.

Vince Vawter: Uh, w what a good service, uh, he performed for me, um, you know, uh, when you look at it standing up and I'm in a crowd in a small crowd, uh, is, uh, sh I shouldn't be that frightening. And from then on, I got more comfortable, uh, speaking in front of a crowd still stuttering, uh, and what helped a lot. Uh, my standard line starting my speech was, uh, folks.

Vince Vawter: I have some good news and I have some bad news. The good news is my speech is only 10 minutes, but because I stutter, we might be here for 25 or 30 minutes. And so that, that draws a laugh and, and, and, and at that point, I'm completely at ease. I'm still stuttering, but I have found my voice. Uh, and, and I don't hear myself stutter anymore.

Vince Vawter: It's kind of strange. I know I do stutter. Uh, anytime I go on TV, uh, and, and it's played back or I, or I look at it online. I always say to myself, uh, you know, I didn't think I stuttered that much. Uh, and it's just because I don't pay any attention to it. I cannot tell you how much that I stutter. I know I still stutter, but, um, I just concentrate on what I want to say.

Vince Vawter: Not so much on exactly how I'm going to say it.

Uri Schneider: Surprising paradox and something that people would picture it'd be so impossible. Right? You meet people with kids eight years old, nine years old, obviously younger, who are stuttering all over the place and you ask them, oh, does that stuttering bother you? And they're like, what, what, you know, that thing that stutter parents will ask kids, or they'll try to.

Uri Schneider: Try to convince us, you know, how could they not know that it's happening? Right. And the funny thing is that when we grow up, we don't care what color shirt we're wearing. We don't color, you know, you don't care what brand sneakers we got. And at a certain point we start to care and then we get to a certain age where we stop caring.

Uri Schneider: And, uh, it's kind of surprising, but I'm really glad you mentioned that because I think it's important on both ends to recognize one can get to a place. Of finding their voice and still having stuttering, but not really being tuned into it. There's other things you're attending to, and you can be a young person and start off in that place.

Uri Schneider: What if we could bridge that and minimize the amount of worry that is not necessary. And that kind of brings me to the point that you mentioned before we spoke. Stuttering is what we do when we attempt not to stutter. Right. Another profound statement that maybe you could shed some light for people. That don't get it as much as I jive with it.

Uri Schneider: Stuttering is what we do when we attempt not to stutter.

Vince Vawter: Yeah. Well, um, the, um, I guess I need to tell this story also, uh, in 2014, uh, the, uh, the book, uh, had been out about, um, uh, had been out about a year and, uh, how was i asked to give the keynote address to a group of a speech pathologist in Memphis, Tennessee, uh, out where I grew up.

Vince Vawter: Um, and I said I would. And, uh, so, um, my speech was called my stuttering manifesto that was the title of it. And there are three parts to it. Uh, and, uh, when I got in the room there, uh, to keep in mind, now, this was in 2014 when I got in the room, uh, I started thinking, oh, you know, I'm going to be saying some things.

Vince Vawter: To these learned speech pathologist and they may run me out of the room. I'm probably gonna say some things which they don't want to hear. Uh, and S and so my stuttering manifesto is first, uh, stuttering is not cured. Stuttering is overcome. I truly believe that. Um, and a quick, a quick aside, I love the title of your blog, transcending stuttering.

Vince Vawter: That's what it is. It's not getting rid of stutter. Uh, sure. It's improving, but you are transcending your stutter. That's the way I think of it. And then my second point was stuttering is what we do when we try not to stutter. Now that's a very simple statement and, and it kind of rolls easily off the tongue, but.

Vince Vawter: If you really do a deep dive, uh, into that, um, I think it's a hundred percent true. It's a stutterers attempt to gain fluency. And in that attempt, they are causing a stutter. How do you get around that? Well, a lot of therapists, use voluntary steps. And I think that's worthwhile, it kinda gets your mind to thinking well, okay.

Vince Vawter: Yeah. Uh, you know, it's something I do have control over maybe because I can voluntarily stutter so it's, it's a. It it's a profound and simple statement, but it has a lot of layers, uh, that kind of go with it. Uh, and and make it a complicated. Uh, and then the third part of my manifesto is, uh, uh, fluency is Overrated.

Vince Vawter: Uh, you know, I think, you know, um, I, I went through one program and, uh, I think the figure the people used is that the six o'clock anchor, uh, uh, on the evening news is somewhere between 92 and 95% fluent. They are not a hundred percent fluent okay. Uh, a person who stutters could be between, uh, 30% fluent, you know, a 50% fluent.

Vince Vawter: Uh, you know, you know, on and on. And so it's a matter of quantity. It's not a matter of it's, it's not a matter of quality. Um, my definition of fluency is if I can say anything, I want to say anytime, I want to say it at that point. im, fluent. Now I'm still stuttering to beat the band, but as long as I can, uh, uh, S say what I want to say when I want to say it, as far as I'm concerned, I'm fluent and the rest is just a semantics.

Uri Schneider: When did you draft the notes for this stuttering manifestor well, um,

Vince Vawter: I guess, uh, shortly after I wrote the book, you know, knew that I was gonna have to, uh, talk more about stuttering. Uh, and, and so I, and so I tried to come up with the three or four things .

Vince Vawter: Which I thought deeply about. Um, and that might, uh, get some other people, uh, uh, thinking stuttering is so misunderstood. And I consider part of what I'm here to do is explain stuttering, explain that. We are just like everybody else, except there's, there's something going on up there. That that is a disconnect and we don't talk like other people talk, but.

Vince Vawter: We are all different. Uh, some of us are bald. you know, I happened to be a very bald, uh, a stutterer. There's nothing wrong with being bald and there's nothing wrong with stuttering. Uh, it's just, it's just, uh, who we are. And so, and so try to grasp that. One caveat on this.

Vince Vawter: I'm very careful when I talk to young people and I never say that stuttering is not cured. They don't need to hear that. Uh, uh, S so I never say it in those words, um, I do say that your goal in therapy instead of fluency, should be in finding your own voice. Um, uh, and I truly believe that

Uri Schneider: powerful. I was thinking about the past.

Uri Schneider: Uh, bringing that book paper, boy. And then of course, the next book to the world, I was wondering what changed for you? Was it a page Turner for you? Is it a chapter Turner for you in Vince's journey, prior to putting out the book, I'm sure you had been more out with your stuttering, but I'm sure putting the book out there and the clear identification of your own story in the, in the storyline.

Uri Schneider: Did you feel something shifted in you when you put that out? Um,

Vince Vawter: I really did. And, and that shift was, I came to realize that stuttering for everybody is a journey. Now my journey is not like another stutter's journey it's but we're all on a journey. Um, and that journey is going to go up and down and, it's going to be, what you make it.

Vince Vawter: I very much try to point out if you are own a journey. Uh, it's it's always a lot more fun. To travel with somebody and that person you're traveling with should be your speech pathologist, uh, they are going to, uh, help you, uh, get where you want to go. And it's just good to have a friend along the way.

Vince Vawter: A young person who stutters, uh, I think they think two things. Uh, I just want to talk like my friends, that's all I want to be able to do is to talk like my friends. Uh, and then there comes this massive confusion, uh, you know, I seem to be as smart as everybody else I seem to be. Um, um, uh, you know, you know, I seem to be a good person.

Vince Vawter: I seem to be liked, you know, what's the matter with me. Um, well, you know, the answer is there's nothing wrong with you. You are an individual, uh, you just need to be trying to find your voice, you know, you know, I, you know, I cautioned them into thinking I've got to stop stuttering.

Vince Vawter: I've just got to stop stuttering. I think what you need to concentrate on is finding your voice and you will find it what the, what the beauty is in that. Is that, you know, if you're a person like John Stossel, you can find your voice. Uh, and you can be a famous newscaster, you know, there is no limit, in the early days of speech therapy and now once again, this is in the fifties and sixties, because I go way back, uh, what speech therapy was, was.

Vince Vawter: Uh, trial for half hour or fail for a half hour, go back the next week. Try for a half hour fail for half half, try fail, try, fail, try, fail. And I think it had the, I think it had the wrong effect. I think, um, I think it, it poured into our minds that, that we were all about failure. Uh, so you know, it, uh, uh, I it's it's, uh, but, but, uh, one thing I am so proud of is that the, the speech pathology, uh, world has come, uh, has, has come around to the fact that, uh, the person who stutters.

Vince Vawter: Needs to be treated as they need to look at the whole person, not just the stuttering. Um, in some of, with some of my other therapists, they didn't want to hear about my feelings. They really didn't want to hear, uh, out of what I was going through it. They just wanted to, to say, okay, uh, uh, let's work on your plosives and we'll, let's work on this and let's work on that.

Vince Vawter: Uh, and, and I think that speech pathology now I think, uh, is, uh, is more of a holistic. Uh, type approach. Uh, I think that most, a speech pathologist now, uh, do look at the whole person and I think the whole person matters.

Uri Schneider: No, you're a hundred percent. Right. And while I wish I could vouch for every single professional out there, uh, there's work to be done, but there's no question.

Uri Schneider: No question at all that the good people out there, the good speech language pathologist, and the vast majority of our field is coming to appreciate the following and put these on little pins for going to the Montreal conference next week, joint world Congress on stuttering cluttering. And we have these pins we're going to give out and they say, treat people not problems.

Vince Vawter: Oh, wow.

Vince Vawter: Well that's good

Uri Schneider: So inspired. By your comments um, I think a step further that we can all take as, uh, mentors, parents, therapists, teachers is, is like Vince said, see the whole person, but Vince he's dreaming to be a baseball player, whether it's going to happen or not the Vince who not only.

Uri Schneider: May get stuck on a word or two, but has some pretty good ideas and needs to find a amplifier for his voice and get an audience to hear him out. A step further is even giving agency and putting the person at the center of the process that they're an agent of their own journey and not just some marionette puppet that would pull their strings and tell them how to do this.

Uri Schneider: Go here go there um, so really people certainly a person centered care is really the next wave of, of what we can do. You used a word Vince that's and you're the one of the most respected wordsmiths in the community. So I'd love to hear your take on people. Especially now, uh, as we get more sensitive to inclusion and diversity and triggers and all sorts of things, which are so important to create safe spaces and have these crucial conversations.

Uri Schneider: One of the words that you used is the word overcome. Stuttering is not cured. Stuttering is overcome. And I was wondering, I don't know if you're aware there are those. When they say it, they mean something different than what I think you mean. And there are those that take issue when they hear that word being used.

Uri Schneider: And I was wondering if you could just number one, maybe enlightened me and us about what you meant versus what others might meant. And number two, how do we, how do we on the one hand speak with sensitivity and on the other hand, not cancel out, uh, words that might be useful and used by different people with different.

Vince Vawter: Yeah.

Vince Vawter: Uh, you know, I realize that, uh, that, that statement, it kinda, uh, it kind of, uh, paint a broad stroke on things. What I mean, though, is that, um, I am a person who stutters, um, I probably will always stutter, uh, and the clinical terminology of it. But, um, if I have confidence and, and a one-on-one conversation and a conversation in a small group, in a conversation to a large group, If I have that confidence to throw myself out there and to speak my truth, uh, I have overcome my stutter.

Vince Vawter: Uh, I have not , cured my stutter. Um, I tell you what I, um, and I'm, and, and I might get in trouble here and you may have to cut this out. I don't know, but. Uh, several years ago, well, probably 30, 35 years ago, there was a book out and it was called stuttering solved and, and I'm thinking, oh gosh, I got to get that book.

Vince Vawter: Well, I read that book and. Uh, I just kept shaking my head. That's not right. Th th this, this guy, uh, is just not right. Stuttering is not solved. Stuttering. Stuttering is worked on, uh, stuttering, uh, is, is, uh, It might be improved. Uh, a word flow might be improved, but stuttering is not solved. Um, I think if you talk with James Earl Jones, uh, and if you hear him as Darth Vader, you're thinking, oh my gosh, he has solved, uh, his stuttering.

Vince Vawter: No, he hasn't, uh, I've had the opportunity to hear him when he is in his non Darth Vader voice. And he is a person who stutters and, uh, you know, just because he's Darth Vader, uh, I guess you could say as Darth Vader, uh, he has overcome his stutter. I would like to ask him though, um, if he thinks his stutter is cured and I can almost guarantee you, he, he will say, no, it's not cured.

Vince Vawter: I still am a person. Uh, who stutters, even though he's a great actor, a great voice. Um, uh, he, uh, he has overcome it.

Uri Schneider: I'm not sure where you're going to get in trouble for. I was, I was thinking it's very funny that you brought them up because I was thinking when you mentioned how you got to the age of 45 mid-career and you'd manage not to do much public speaking to that point.

Uri Schneider: And I was going to mention that James Earl Jones, you have not seen him on late night TV. You have not seen him in spontaneous impromptu interviews where. It is extremely rare, especially given his position and interest in him. And it's clear that that's a choice and, uh, I would tend to agree with you. So, so overcome, and I'll play a quick game with you.

Uri Schneider: Would you be game for a quick game that I do with young people who stutter? I say to them, uh, you know, first three words that come to mind when you think of stuttering, but they gotta be descriptive. And they can't be judgmental. So it can't be words like good or bad, but more things like the shape, color texture, what are three, three words that come to mind when you think of your stutter.

Vince Vawter: Uh, when I think of my stutter

Uri Schneider: or stuttering in general, you could bring it to yourself or in general,

Vince Vawter: uh, three words that come to mind. The first one is interesting. Um, I don't talk like everybody else, you know, I don't drone on like everybody else. You know, I have hiccups, I have Hills and valleys. Uh, you know, uh, have you ever talked to a person who, who, who, who just kind of is one level and drones zone and on and on and on.

Vince Vawter: Uh, and

Uri Schneider: sometimes I'm that guy,

Vince Vawter: you know, you, you, you know, you're thinking, I wish he would do something else, you know? Hey, you know, why don't you stutter a little bit. It'll be more interesting. Uh, the, the, the second word I think, uh, is, uh, Is w well, this may, you know, once again, I might be the odd duck. I think you can see me searching.

Vince Vawter: So I do the no-no and I substitute words, I substitute words, but I always. I try to make sure the word I have substituted for is a more interesting word. So I like to think I have a pretty good vocabulary because I can choose between a lot of words. Uh, and, uh, some I will stutter on and some I won't, but I'm always searching.

Vince Vawter: For the best word. Uh, uh, and sometimes it's a word I'm fairly sure I'm not going to stutter on. And sometimes I do stutter on him and that's okay. Um, what's another way I would describe, uh,

Vince Vawter: This is something I truly believe in. I think that people who stutter, I think we may have more empathy for other people. Um, when, when we struggle to get words out of our mouth, uh, W we see we are fallible. Uh, I think, I think we have an empathy for, uh, for the other person, because we know that while they may not stutter, they're probably going through the same things.

Vince Vawter: They, they have bouts, and they have, challenges. Uh, so, when I was in the newspaper business, uh, I was a reporter, a copy editor, and then I got into management and the thing, and the, I think. And I don't know this for a fact. I think what led me, what led my bosses into choosing me for management is because I had empathy for the people working for me.

Vince Vawter: Uh, I knew, uh, I had gone through a lot of things. Uh, and I knew that they would have to go through a lot of things, not stuttering, but, but self doubt and things like that. So I think I was a better boss. Uh, so, so I don't know. I don't know if I've answered your question or not, but those are the, the three words that came up

Uri Schneider: interesting.

Uri Schneider: Searching and empathy. Now I might get in trouble for this one. I'll take a chance since you did as well. But the irony, the irony of you asked a person who stutters specifically those that enjoy searching and doing some word, um, word crawling through the thesaurus is up there. Yeah. The irony is they might get stuck on some words, but when you ask them a closed ended question, they might give you a really long winded answer, which is delightful.

Uri Schneider: It kind of meanders, and it's a delightful surprise as well. It makes it interesting. You'd think a person who stutters doesn't have as much to say or would be short, but sometimes it's the circumlocutions take you interesting places, sometimes distracting places, but sometimes interesting. places

Vince Vawter: there's a quote in paper, boy from Voltaire who says, who says speech was given to man to disguise his thoughts.

Vince Vawter: And, and I think, uh, I just love that quote

Uri Schneider: that is stunning. And as a communication person, what I would say is the voice cannot hide a. Person's thoughts and emotions and states. So you listen to the voice, you hear the truth words can disguise the masses how are you doing fine. The words of saying I'm fine.

Uri Schneider: I'm fine. I'm fine. The voice tells everything that Vince let's take a walk. Imagine I had the privilege to meet. When you were going into that speech therapy, trial and error, when you were going through some, some times where you didn't feel you had anybody on the journey with you, and it was not the strong 75 year old accomplished by bio Vince, what would be the three words that young Vince might've attributed stuttering?

Vince Vawter: Um,

Vince Vawter: the first one is scared um, I spent, I spent a lot of my youth just being frightened. Uh, um, I didn't know what was going to happen to me. Uh, and, and, uh, uh, I guess the word I should have used first is confused. Total confusion. I could not figure it out. Um, you know, I would think, uh, well, you know, I think my friends liked me, but.

Vince Vawter: Uh, uh, what do they think of my speech? Uh, and you know, I can't talk to them about my stutter and they don't talk to me

Vince Vawter: about my stutter. Uh, you know, what's going on here. Uh, so, so, so it's a fright, uh, confusion, uh, and then. Um, uh, you know, I don't know if, if I was like, um, the average person who stutters, but I thought a lot about my future. Uh, what was I going to do? Uh, the big mistake I made was trying to find myself worth, uh, in things like sports, uh, and things like, uh, sometimes, uh, sometimes I would, I would try to be the life of the party, uh, G just saying short phrases, uh, and not really.

Vince Vawter: Trying to talk with anybody closely, one-on-one just up kind of a superficial attitude. Uh, so, so I, so the, I, you know, I think, uh, uh, I think confusion, uh, fried and then, uh, then, uh, a concern about the future, you know, and, uh, uh, I guess I should mention another thing. Uh, and as much as I hate to admit this, you know, I think it happens sometimes I use my stutter as an excuse for when I failed at something like, you know, you know, I was always horrible at math.

Vince Vawter: Uh, and, and, and I would get a C in math, you know, sometimes a D and you know, my parents would ask me about it and I would say, well, I couldn't go to the board and explain an algebra problem. Because it, because it couldn't make anybody understand me. Well, no, the real answer to that was I was lousy in math and I didn't study enough.

Vince Vawter: It was not because of my stutter. I think that sometimes we use stuttering as a crutch when it's another problem, like. You know, you don't study hard enough in math vince, you know, stuttering is not your problem. Uh, you know, lousy homework preparation is your problem. Um, so, I know, I think sometimes we feel sorry for ourselves and, you have to get over that up to, uh,

Uri Schneider: Amazing.

Uri Schneider: But as we come down the home stretch, there's more, I'd love to explore. Maybe we'll have a round two okay. I'll just tell you two, two beautiful things that I think will excite you and please you. And then I'll let you bring us home with one takeaway or one, one thought what you know, now that you wish you knew earlier.

Uri Schneider: And that is number one. As you said you don't have to go down this journey alone better to have someone along with you. You suggest that it might be a speech language pathologist, right? Suggest you get yourself an entourage or an entire caravan of community behind you, including family, including your school, your friends, your colleagues, et cetera, and a professional guide.

Uri Schneider: That's tremendous. So we have this online transcending community, which is a private community, which I'm looking forward to showing you. And the second thing that we're unveiling and sharing, and you're a big part of it you don't know that, but you are, is a toolbox for speech, language pathologists and people who stutter.

Uri Schneider: If, if, as a kid you described the scare, the fear confusion, concern, um, the antidote to that is not a fluency technique. And to do the antidote to that antidote to fear is courage and the antidote to confusion is some clarity. And the antidote to concern is a little bit. I hear you some validation and it's okay to be concerned is okay to think about the future.

Uri Schneider: And, and you got this having faith and having confidence and having, having people that have walked this road before you. So, so we created a toolbox, which is kind of like a brain trust of all the best resources out on the internet, but organizing the internet of stuttering into one place. That's searchable by age, by topic, by media and.

Uri Schneider: Two entries there. One is the book of course, paper boy, which I encourage everyone to check out and copy. And the other one is Anna Paula at the university of Kansas. They did. A reading club, book club exercise around the book, which is an astounding.

Uri Schneider: They did a wonderful job on that. It taught me, it taught me a lot more about my own book.

Uri Schneider: Shout out to Anna Paula Boomi and spero centering university of Kansas. So if you're interested, check it out@transcendingx.com and the communities where you can get that toolbox. So Vince, to take us home, what would be one take or. One thing, you know, now you wish you knew earlier and you'd like to leave us with some Pearl of wisdom.

Vince Vawter: Um, I think I'm going to tell a very quick story. Um,

Uri Schneider: when I, we need to update your bio events, your bio needs to include master storyteller sold more, better stories than any other guests. We love it. Kick back. Enjoy. the story,

Vince Vawter: a few years ago, and I guess it was five or six years ago now I was speaking, um, at a, a middle school and it was the entire, uh, three grades.

Vince Vawter: And there was probably. Uh, uh, 400 people in the gym or auditorium or whatever it was. And S so I gave my presentation about the book and, uh, uh, what it meant. And there was this one young lady in the front row, and I could tell that she was hanging on every word. And I knew I was going to get a question from.

Vince Vawter: And sure enough, when I call for questions, her hand shot up. And so I called on her and she said, um, uh, he, uh, you are evidently a proud. Uh, first I messed up the story what'd she said first was, oh, I should have written this down. Um, uh, you would, you have written this book if you had not, uh, stuttered.

Vince Vawter: And I said, well, um, I don't think I've ever been asked that question and I'm going to answer you honestly. I don't think I would have, I don't think I could have. And so I thought I'd answer a question, but then she came back out with me again and said, and so you can say that because you are so proud of this book, that you are glad.

Vince Vawter: You are a person who stutters and I got this big lump in my throat. And, um, and I'm thinking, uh, you know, I think she's right. Uh, I am glad I'm a person who stutters. It makes me who I am. It made me who, who I am. Uh, so yes, I'm glad and I went home and I told them my wife and I said, I think I just got about, uh, uh, $3,000 in therapy on this talk.

Vince Vawter: I gave with this young little girl, because she nailed. Uh, yes. Uh, you know, if I were given the choice at five years old now, I don't want to stutter. If I'm given the choice at 75 years old, I'm glad I stutter. It made me a stronger person. It made me who I am. And so I'm fine with it.

Uri Schneider: Remarkable. Now, even more than the $3,000 in therapy, it sounds like your wife.

Uri Schneider: Your wife told me you, you got six inches taller. Right? So I think those are very encouraging words, both for the, uh, parents of young children, teens, adults, and people that care about stuttering. And really, as you said, Vince, beyond stuttering, the book, the story and these conversations are certainly most poignant for people who stutter, but all of us have something that.

Uri Schneider: Challenged by and by listening and learning to each others, stories of human courage and resilience and transcendence. We all stand a little taller, a little wiser, a little more courageous. So thank you so much for this conversation.

Vince Vawter: Thank you. Very lovely.